Lessons

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Panel 1 - We Can Work It Out: The Keys to Successful Collaboration

Thanks for sticking around you guys this panel is about collaboration I think that everyone who pays attention electronic music sees that music is on ly one part of the equation and visuals are such a strong part of not just now but the next generation and so we have some folks from a handful of different disciplines to talk about collaboration and we're going fire off if you take a second, introduce yourself just in thirty seconds or last will move down on but I've got a a bunch of hardball questions for you guys yeah, I'm t j davis from what looks collective were a visual production live bj agency service collective s oh yeah, I spend a lot of time traveling around doing a lot of the big medium festivals, but the last two years on the road with bassnectar doing my visuals and big concert live set up live arena set ups and I also do a lot of stuff here locally and projection mapping and things along those lines, so I'm brandon I produced under the alias d a oh, they make a bunch of sa...

d being since produce for ship rees and a handful of people around town make emotional musics and stuff yeah, mike I don't think so I think that there you go guys on peter earley right on low I'm a portrait tarver from new york and shoot a bunch of people in trouble around work with artists and do that kind of stuff sweet so the, uh stepping out of the game here I'm really interested in t j you guys does huge stuff for huge artists you heard him in throw from the folks pillows um, you know, I let into this just a little bit, but the visual component of music is bigger now than ever before and you see it across all jonah hip hop macklemore for example the site the local local guy, a huge part of his brand and you go all way back to say laurie anderson where the visuals were just a huge part of the history of the music that she was making and elektronik is I think the future of visuals plus music talk to us about your role in that and how you see how you see it unfolding over the next couple of years because it just seems to be getting bigger and bigger. Yeah, definitely getting bigger and anyone who's seen some of these stages at tomorrow land and ultra electric daisy carnival is just getting incredibly large and complicated and and kind of harkens back to the old days of rock and roll it was all pyrotechnics now it's all like video and then in the last couple of years the pyrotechnics they're coming back now to so it's kind of exciting more explosions coming back yeah oh yeah there's explosions and sparks and the whole bit so but yeah, you know it's really that's really interesting right now because it kind of there's this divergence it's happening is one is on the big in the high end and it's kind of frustrating for emerging electronic music artist that comment I want have visual to want to have this led wall behind me and what do you mean it cost fifteen thousand dollars a night to rent it? You know? So so there's this frustration because they see all these things that are happening and then you know, I have no idea the hundreds of thousands of dollars that go into it on the back end but at the same time because of that there's this interesting thing going on with, well, what's going on that's not like that and so you're starting to see a lot of artists do something a little you know, going back to the basics are going simpler, finding a computational designer, a programmer to do something a little funky with just a projector. And so so the opportunities were there to kind of go either way and then there's also a lot more musician lot more electronic artist there taking control of their own visuals and actually either creating them themselves or having them produce themselves and then just literally having them being extension up there music so they're coming out, they're programmed out of able ten or, you know, whatever they're playing back is feeding into the visuals either through time code and so you're starting to see them take a lot more active role in that and not just have it be a third party is so so whichever, you know, if you want to collaborate, if you just want to be the technician there's all these different opportunities in between them all and there's huge opportunities right now for programmers that are doing, you know, really amazing custom stuff patching into ableto name the machine is the one who does the outfit that built the bassnectar rig it's a hybrid between, you know, sink visuals and me doing it live eso there's just all kinds of things going on across all spectrums. So it's definitely an exciting timeto bring visuals into theme music sphere more so than ever. Yeah, brandon or would you prefer mister I g g eight go brandon just mister, mister mister, mister band from the eighties uh so you mentioned earlier like I'm familiar music really ambient and and you said moody visuals are a huge compliment in many cases to moody audio and how do you feel about, like, where's your head at? Is that something that you're interested in? Connecting with or do you prefer to just focus on the visuals and are your collaborations if not with visual artists are they with some other art genre leaving it open? Yep. Super um yeah, I think even just on the music side of things if if I have something with an intention or an idea and I send it to someone and they take it somewhere else that's because they saw something else that transcends in tow all forms of art so yeah, I think it's great like send things they're like if I upload a song and somebody puts up some visuals that they see I like that a lot but also put away what you were talking about with a state performance it's really cool have a vj that's when the into it with the middie controller chopping of scenes and he's jamming along with you gets really expressive yeah do you encourage that like and you put music out that you cited just someone else picking up your stuff and and doing their own thing? Is that something that you encourage your community to do or is that just delighted if they have never sent a cease and desist or anything like that please makes him pretty stuff for my said stuff so sweet I mean that in the vegas way hospital eso peter um I have mentioned macklemore and hip hop side of things um there's obviously an electronic there's a huge component of brand uh, whether you whether the artists wanted or not and part of the brand is very intentionally shaped and a lot of these artists over the basically peter's one of the most famous headshot photographers in the world and so talk to me about that sort of collaboration between, you know, over a camera between you and these artists is that do you feel like are you crafting the vision is the vision a shared vision? Or are you a monkey with the shutter finger while you try not to be a monkey, but uh, you know, when they come to me and they put it in my court to help him out in that department is just awesome, so you want to collaborate with them, but a lot of people are on the same page once they get in front of the camera, sometimes they're freaking out on, they just want to, you know, promote their brand and get something cool out of it, and then they fall to pieces and I'm like, I got to pick him up, you know, sure, um, but if the visions there and you come together in a kind of cohesive fashion, you convey what it is that you're going for, and they're kind up for being molded than then it really it really works on the on the other side of the spectrum is it goes the other way sometimes it's hard to recover so if it shoots going downhill you know you've been there it's very scary so any prep work or whatever I usually like the artist to come to me with with a vision or an idea or something that we can kind of dig into a little bit before we start going down that path and I don't want to show up on the shoot unless they like what they are even they just say do what you do and they're happy with that but trying to give them something unique because uh you know that's the their digital identity is so important to them and it's an important part of the brandon you need it in this day and age obviously were very visual society so creating you know I look at what they've got in the past and then try and see we're upgrade exactly you want you always a lot of shit out there right yeah so I think that people should be aware what's out there off them by you know you know I would say google yourself and his images and make sure you uh like what comes up or you get it replaced rapidly sweet um so there's a handful of things that they're sort of swarming around when one word that comes to my mind right now which is technology and you mentioned that there's the fifteen thousand dollars a night solution and then there are other solutions so how much and say for all of you how much of a role this technology play in your collaboration you talked about posting something someone else could pull it down and rework it that's a piece of technology between you and your collaborators you talked about financial limitations and limitations of what's affordable technology so t j like talk to me for a second about the gaps or is there things that you know, there were folks when the manufacturers here listening so are the things that you are not able to get that you want? Um and if folks don't have fifteen thousand dollars, what some hack technology that they khun um, helped make their world better? Oh, there's always technology I want that I can't get and it's one hundred percent about money usually, but yeah, I mean, obviously when you see and this is the same on the audio side or any kind of production side when you know, as the production scales, you know, so short of the cars but there's definitely like, you know, even just a good you know, three or four thousand women projector that people have amongst themselves um either borrow one from work or you've got one of your home theater projector there's things that can be done in a in a dark room with that that are cool and so so technology obviously is you know, the killer and the blessing of any you know, these events and things that you d'oh um and so it's just you just kind of go with it and the one thing that you know, you try to think about a particular if you're going to go on tour and, you know, picking things that are reliable and and there's so many cool like tools that are out there people are messing around with connects and but they're just not quite there and so you might have something that's right on the cutting edge but it's not going to be reliable and that could be embarrassing when you're out in in a in a show so yeah it's like, you know, money no money there's you know, if you could go either way and so but as you scale it gets expensive really quickly up into the hundreds of thousands millions of dollars in some cases so but you start a little and then go from there and there's most of the skills that we have as vjs translate just a cz well down to a couple of plasma televisions all the way up to, you know, thisa hair attendant coachella it's like it's not that big of a different I'm plugging in to you know, the largest video screen in the world or you no one at home and so in our role that's actually a luxury that we have is that we can kind of flow in between those and so personally I find it a little more fun these days to kind of do the scrappy go back to the old ways of doing it work with a band to do something cool with limited resource is because that's where the you know some of the artistic find converses somebody big shows I oh, wow, this is huge I'm gonna plug and play the same thing I've been playing for the last eight two months and so will your hits on yeah s o'brien and talk about technology in the world that you are in right now and whether it's file sharing or a couple of your favorite things what's missing what do you use and tell us about it? Uh, I'm all about just using whatever you actually have access to. I think what stuns creativity more than a lot of things is feeling like you have to have something else to create something that makes you happy so just grab things around you if it's sending binary data through a usb cable, you can probably turn into something cool at their audio or visual like I just have a snow and you nailed that actually I think just making use of you know the saying and photography that the best cameras the one that's with you on whatever is near and dear to you that it's pretty saying on the audio side of things I don't want to do a shout out to this conglomerate or anything but dropbox makes things really easy if you share holder was someone and then just kind of throw stems back and forth and it's really fun way to do it I feel like there's no pressure it's something you already working on anyways and then it pops up on your computer actually do a lot of field recording through my phone and I haven't wrapped it just sends it right to drop box you could choose the file format that's only like nine bucks I'll hold it up to the camera or something later but it's really, really nice because I could just have things on my phone I feel like I want a sample of, you know, dropping a broken beer bottle or something which happens when themselves uh you can chalk that up and make drums or whatever I feel like we're really getting close to a stream line technological process of making all forms of our you know, the fact that you have access to that stuff in the plotters that like a works at creative live anthony and you're here in the audience anthony but I was asking him for some background music for something and could we sort of collaborate on that he's like, well, I already got like three or four thousand songs that are unfinished they're weeks that I've made and they're on the clown is like, you know, can I send them to you? Of course was like, holy shit don't send me three thousand anything but the fact that you have it out there and there's this sort of there's a immediacy to collaboration now that's never happened before based on technology is that I mean, do you feel like that's what dropbox allows you to do? Yeah it's also I feel like a lot of people are introverts is well, yeah, some people can't just get in a room and jam with people or you know there's too much pressure but it's nice to be able to be in your comfort zone and send things back and forth until it evolves into something else. And peter, what about the technology in your world? I mean, their cameras have obviously moved forward dramatically, but so have you even talked about google on the ability to control your image online? Talk to me a little bit about how how technology you're lack thereof either helps or hinders the work that you want to be with other artists, but you must remember film days, right? I do I just I sadly, the building that used to produce all my film is getting bulldozed right now a cz uh this neighborhood you know, turns over but it used to be a huge cost actually so I think a lot of people lament the disappearance of film and I love the look but I do not miss, you know, spending twenty five hundred dollars to go get a bunch of film managing all of that and then once you have it it's like gold bars and you're carrying it around and then you go hand someone you have to, you know, pay and another twenty five hundred dollars that have it turned into the thing that you want and that process takes time so I don't miss any of that shape going through security with us, right? And it's romantic is hell, but it's a pain in the ass? Uh, well, the other thing was the weight you know, that the time ever however I photograph didn't see this stuff for a while and I didn't even see it, so I'm taking polaroids and then hoping I got the shot yeah, where is now we have instant gratification so it's pretty quick and then and then the thing is is that you can throw it up online and they could start doing stuff with it, so as an artist it's kind of part I had I have this happen all the time, which I kind of I don't mind so much but I photographed this girl like last week and I'm like I think instagram's cool and I think the filters air cool but not on my work yeah don't be messing with my stuff without me having to say about it you're just throwing it out there was not very collaborative is here yeah which there wasn't you know here it goes valencia uh actually that living a snake lee segway into another thing which is ego so you work with some of the biggest electronic music artists in the world and we all know that none of them have egos yeah, talk to me a little bit about that like that's that's an actual thing but that cuts both ways I imagine you know you get exposure and you're raising the bar one another there's some sort of comfort like friendly competition but I'm also putting words in your mouth and I should just shut up. So tell me what it's like um well yeah, I mean, you don't don't get, you know, rodrigo's and some of the those deejays, but but a lot of them, you know and you know, lauren basically the perfect example who's who's, very humble and very passionate about what he does and so is willing to say hey you know I wanna have you here's the things that I want to do and then the rest of it you just have fun with it and so that's like the type of artists it's like really great to work with before that I was out on the road with night party and they were the same same way they're like whatever you want to do we love your stuff go for you know and so that's really refreshing and but a lot of pressure on you because you're like, well I got to like bring it you know? But then you have other folks that won't be named and like yeah here's my usb stick and play this exactly how I have it here and don't play anything else and this morning themselves and it's uh it's really bad and I'm like oh man, I have to tell people I'm not this is my stuff playing this I'm not doing this and so and so yeah I mean there's that's always part of it and so I just tried to steer clear of those folks because it's no fun of me it takes a lot out of it when you're when you're dealing with someone like that and but you know on the other hand a lot of people do have really strong visions and they are the artist in most cases the visual artist is the secondary person and the you know the musician or the e m artists they are the artists and so you have to you know submit to their vision in some cases and so be on board with that from the beginning so kind of goes both ways for your personal balance do you seek teo you serve that sometimes where you are the primaries and you're bringing the musicians disappoint elation and a lot of that not a lot opportunities for that was he starts with the music and and we're ok with that you know I mean there's not a whole lot of scenarios for people that I'm going to go out and watch visual lt's usually the music is what people with dr on dh but that you know much okay yeah sweet mr talk to me about the the the ego part of music and collaboration oh ok he goes kind of broad if they're asking for their skittles to be color coordinated that's one thing but I don't think that really has anything artistic about it despite the color palette so I don't I don't know maybe it's a it's my stature I don't really encounter a lot of that if you like regardless of barton stuff people kind of bounce off each other and opportunities following two people's laps and stuff but if you buy in the sandwich in your a c word like I'm not going to want to make art with you either so personality definitely he's a a huge factor, but I think just like my yeah, keep going about you could be more specific and I are I would like it to come across the way that I intended collaboration is one thing if you can control what actually gets put out, just like you were saying, I don't want somebody putting this a p a filter on top of my gangster as be, uh, like, I want to hear what's gonna happen, for it comes out and like, you don't have a rollout plan and stuff like that, but as far as the collaboration process, if if you think someone has too much of an ego or you have too much of one yourself, people are gonna want to f with you eventually, you know, you could be on top right now, but that's that's temporary, and I think this is I think it's real and you can't choose a lot of things. You can't choose the weather, you can't choose, uh, market conditions who's on top right now, but you can control you gotta work with every day and what you collaborate with and why? And I think that's an important you know, my background as a photographer, I think about all the collaborations that I went into with a really open mind and was excited about then there was a couple people that I was like, well, I'm not sure how that's going to go into pretty much usually goes the way you think it's going to go and I think it's a fair takeaway for the folks at home are watching a live on the internet and the clothes in the audience that you act like choosing who you work with rather than having that just happen. I think going into that with intention it seems to be a takeaway here you want to put an exclamation point on that for me, peter, you want to say yeah, I mean the same thing all the time sometimes you're dealing with the actual person in a lot of times they've got a team of people that you have to get through to get to them so you know, it's a tired because they show up on set and you have you dealt with the team and you don't even know how they're gonna behavior, how big their egos gonna be if, um I had a couple of shoots with people that are that, like I was alive, you know, I'm going in kind of apprehensive like, is this person gonna be cool because their team was just like killing a deep yeah roland e on uh I shot this one guy and he gave me like tendencies like, all right, you got it and I was like, all right, cool and then and then he was into photography so he brought me into his office and started showed me all his work and he's been like, oh, twenty minutes like show me always stop and gave me a bunch of books and he's like that was I was accused spent ten minutes with me letting me photograph you and then you hanging out with me and he's like you were great, but during this year it was like building that report sure in a short period of time with a guy that was like, not accessible, all going into the shoots of the collaboration was like at a minimum, which will for a while I got the shots, but afterwards it was like the collaboration talking it's photographer out of tyre for was really cools. That was an interesting scenario. I'm gonna ask question now I think that a lot of people think about, but don't ask and that is when you are a certain level in your craft, be it sort of the visuals and you do you look to swim upstream with people who have more notoriety than you? Is there some sort of an accolade? Is there a pecking order? Is there a? Is that a win for you if you're uh lined up and comer and you're working with moby or should you stay in your own like don't marry up like what's what's your thesis or what your philosophy on that and I feel like I can make some assumptions but telling coming out is in the electronic world well clearly I mean you you wantto get just for excitement purpose is to be able to play you know I played the stage it tomorrow land is like whoa, this is the biggest thing that's the biggest thing I've ever done and so yeah it is you know it's fun but at some point it's you know there's there there is a cap and then it's like you're kind of becoming more of a technician and more of ah if you know such I've seen earlier is there is something that's nice about can we go back and do some simple stuff you know? So I you know did my last bassnectar show in january have taken this year to kind of work on my own stuff do some other things and you know this winter and next year I'll go out probably with another artists and go out and do the bigger stuff and so yeah in our world I mean there's b squared labs there's moment factory the's air outfits that do huge you know, huge set up two moment factory does the super bowl you know, so the projection mapping on them field and some of those things that you've seen that air like that yeah love toe work on one of those projects so it's like a baby james dream because I wanted to a project with moment factory on dh so you're always going to strive for that but you don't you know, wrap everything you do around and achieving that because then you're going to miss out on some things and opportunities there in front of you as well. So but yeah so opportunistic you're not pandering or pursuing as a means of advancing your career no it's you know, I know a lot of people do that, but you know, if you're doing it because you enjoy it, some of those things are enjoyable so it's big your you know, get a feather in your cap ing may be charged more next time around, but, um but you know, you have to pick and choose that being said I do want to work on something with moment factory some point in the future, so if the origin and we'll play it back to you that will send the tapes yeah um so when he won't elaborate on that you cats over there, I think it is a kind of faraway places like love a leverage him I owe to man is an island yeah to mike zillion go for, um I I actually like getting you know with jobs where I'm going to shoot a celebrity I think that's kind of cool because they've already made a kind of a feather in my cap I like those but I also like collaborating where I take a picture something happens and this person like those rocket ships tio up into that stratosphere so I photographed this grow at the beginning of her career I'm ahead shopped our issue a lot of actors too and I shot her and I actually after she did this film she just went off like crazy and thie production company hired me to shoot the cast of the film and the director so I was shooting the director and her and the rest of caste and I asked the director I was she started to talk about her head shot that got her the job the actress and the director was like I saw that shot I knew it was her I knew it was her and then she got I think she I don't know if she got nominated for the oscar anyway long story short she shows up on the cover of vanity fair I thought that was pretty cool fact that I had a hand and somehow helping her nudge her career in a general direction and to have the director tell me it was my shot that actually got her in the door is huge so that was awesome mr mister, it is I feel like with technology making things more accessible on and obviously instant gratification comes if you make something that's authentic to you, people can replicate that really quickly too. So instead of worrying about things is like stepping stones it's kind of make what comes naturally to you and if it I think it's authentic people are searching for that within this digital age of ones and zeros sweet um I think influence is a really interesting concept uh I'll just use myself as an example. I don't I don't really find myself aspiring to the work of other photographers. I can respect the masters, for example, but what inspired me most was the artists of the sixties, seventies and eighties of new york who were sort of the medic component of them, reinventing our while they were making are so jean michel basquiat took graffiti out of the streets and put it into the galleries and basquiat, mercer and warhol took brillo boxes off the shelves and put it into museums who are some of the what with that lens? Who are some folks that you feel like you're connected to as a collaborator even though you might not work with them that have influenced your work? Who's outside your genre that you feel like is has been impactful to you and in this there isn't built that that mentality and then tell me why wow that's a tough question on gynecology was all softballs but fast yeah, you know, it's it's interesting, because I haven't really, you know, as a deejay and visual artists, you know, I got started in a buddy of mine produced underground raves twenty years ago, you get what the computer come down and make graphics, I'm like, ok, sure, so I can know this is pretty cool and so, you know, it was it was in a small town and I was kind of in the silo where I didn't have a lot of external, you know, inspiration or, you know, education, even and so, and it wasn't until, you know, this last three or four years on a kind of launched under this much larger scale on now, I'm exposed to and see, you know, people that are doing things and, you know, it's inspired mints also frustrated that comment, if I had known about these guys, you know, fifteen years ago it could have gone into this, but now it's like that's a whole another career in terms of learning that software that's like too late, I don't know. And so, um, but, you know, the square labs is probably, you know, the pinnacle of visual production and djs work in the in the united states and so certainly, you know, we're always looking at what they're doing and using mirrors and, you know, they're just they're every everything they come out with its always has some sort of a new twist on, you know, what could be done. So so that's, probably the one that stands out the most for me. What about you guys? You share one mike over there. Are there any cross genre inspirations or sort of collaborations across time and space that you feel like our been instrumentally worker that you want, uh, strike toward just like sampling on your side of things, like sampling things around you? You know, everyday sounds and then using that as, like, a restriction, and then I'm going to make something out of this, like limiting new tools because we do have access to everything every time, sometimes it's inspiring. You just limit what you happened with that same with like, if somebody else makes a song and then you remix it, uh, kind of using their sources to still express yourself through that medium, I think it's really good to wound way too grown in general hey, peter, before you go I'm going to go off script here for second and if there are any questions in the honest I'm going to throw to you all and I'll use my mic to recite your question if you have them thinking I'm gonna come back to you guys and just just a hot minute back to you peter way crash on collaboration talking about cross jonah I picked up a camera women and started taking pictures so I never really had thought I would be a guitar for side everything that popped into my brain with it was kind of random and spontaneous, so I was never I was inspired by photographers that at first we were told to pick up a camera so and I've worked with him a bunch of um doing I got into I was training for the olympics and I raced sailboats and that was kind of my path and I I was always into, like, the fastest sailors and stuff who inspired me to get faster in a sailboat, but I never thought about it on a photographic level. Um so when I did pick up a camera right now a lot of my work's done on a white background I mean, richard avedon was like it, so I was like that's just good for him good for you been doing it for fifteen years works uh sweet, so I think wow, it's related to the ego question, but is there a friendly competition that any of you seek with your fellow collaborators like do you go high up on the food chain like, oh, I know my man bob is just he's the dopest and I can't wait for like I want to make something with him or her because it's going to make my work better or I really want to put my stuff in an arena where it otherwise might not. Sean, so talk to me about the inspiration or competition aside from the ego because he goes got sort of a negative connotation, where's like healthy competition in collaboration. Oh, absolutely, when we show up at these big festivals, you know, there's power, twenty thirty djs, the same group of guys, they're operating at this level like road rodriguez I want to show, so we'll come up it like it's kind of intentional to you go up and hang out in front of house while they're doing their scent and stand behind them and, like, see what they're doing and, like, you know, kind of peek over the show, yeah, that was cool, man and then they do the same thing to you, it kind of puts this extra like I really got to be on my game because now it's someone who knows no to trick knows what I'm doing and sometimes you know, the people that were there at the show are sometimes a little easier to please the djs usually iron, so so they're definitely like a friendly competition that goes on there and a little you know, gear and be and what you got going on and so um so yeah there's definitely you know that that element there sweet I think regardless of like, famer, stature, whatever it's nice to tap into the competitive human nature that is inherent than anything that you're passionate and uh and it was sometimes just working with a friend who is doing the same thing they you might be working on the same b and then as you're taking turns, you want to impress him, you don't want to just throw some things on there, so I think that's that should be a subconscious thing that's happening all times all times I think a lot of cars out there like I really look for people that I got that I've either worked with or I know our friends or something on a train concept I think photographers were always trying to work on our portfolios and come up with new things and then we see another photographer's work we who we like and we want to put a spin on it or it inspires us to do something on dh I think the fact that I worked with a lot of artists aiken pick out my brain the ones that I'm like well, you're you're coming back we got it we got something to do, you know and I'll put it in their brain and say come up with something and let's let's start oh, come up with an idea and let's just take a weekend and go shoot and you know, it's like, you know, the amazing things happen and it's probably you know, the best work is when it just happened spontaneously the deputy plant that seed and then you see where we're where the other person wants to take it and then you come together on on an idea and things happen when referencing other peoples were ever had said that if you steal one person's work that's stealing if you still everyone's work that's research so uh so I want to take a second go to the crowd and see if there are any questions that we can address it just got a few minutes up here in the panel I'm looking for a hand up all the way in the back you can shout it out and then I will uh say what you say assuming there's no profanity into this microphone and then these guys we'll answer it go out of order uh references the point I was asking about earlier so the question was do you see a time in the future where the visuals are going to take center stage and the music actually caters to the visuals? I think there's some that are arguing that that's kind of happening now, some of these big festivals, particularly there's, kind of this criticism against a lot of the idiom djs that they're just going up there and hitting place where there's questionable, whether they're you playing music and on that's on the hand symbols up. And so someone did point that out, like, wow, you could just stick any but any dude and sunglasses up there and, you know, it's still gonna look and sound and be the same, and so there's definitely is an element of that, and that was one of the things that was really important to learn, for example, is like, I don't want it to be that I wanted to be me and an extension of me, so the visual for an extension of him, and when he was pushing buttons, there was data coming out that was representing itself in the screens. And so I think that that's happening now, to a certain extent, but you're starting to see some artist, you know, porter robinson, some of the artists that kind of trying to go away from that and doing more live stuff and making it more about the music and then again they are in fact controlling the visuals and having it be an extension of their music so definitely going in both ways in that commercial e v m world it's definitely a big light show laser show like it's it's a whole different animal on dh sometimes the music is actually secondary so I think there will be that time I think it is that time and it's called movies my friend watch a movie you philistine period actually the amon tobin is um installation is incredible in that that's definitely I think drew a lot of people that would have been on the fence about just seeing his life said like normally is you go watch a movie sir there was a couple of the questions you let's go to those folks ends up there you go you're in like the third row there shouted out oh yes oh I a musician I work a lot of worries a lot having some music and they have some big names like president said it's like not amusing all and then when I tried it with some kind of life how like my useless and their official is kind of like to think up a very visual person I don't think I'll have this school I hear that right you're in on this forest like working on like that yeah, that was a very be very hard for you to repeat that but now although they might mess basically a za musician when you're collaborating with visual artist there's a often a gap uh connectivity gap or communication gap between the kind of stuff that you're looking forward that you feel like represents your music well and sometimes we lack the tools the vocabulary to communicate that especially if you're not a visual person so for those folks, just maybe kick it to the music centric people peter, you told me out of this one again don't now all right but you know, talk to us if you can about the sort of the vocabulary and communicating with your collaborators yeah, you know and that's kind of a a two way street but I do think that there's some pressure on the d j to be able to before you do that collaboration sit down, take well here's you know, a dozen different looks, you know, staticky, gritty, colorful, silly and and try to at least get into the genre that they like and then, you know, google images is your friend and say, you know what you like and and have that communication happened to images and it doesn't need to be video to say hey here's a bunch of still images that we really think looked like a feel it goes and most bands at some point they started to do that through their album covers and you know through their artwork or whatever else they have going on and take it start to kind of get an idea and so yeah, that is a that is a dialogue that has to happen on dh that is where separates between someone who's you know, good and resolute and just like I got on my prebaked stuff and I'm just going to force it into you know, whatever you're doing I'm going to force it into this and that comes with experience, you know, having a library that's death you have depth and you know, I did visuals for a couple of years for a thrash metal band so that set me up really well for my party adapts even though they're not bash metal that was the look you know, they're really heavy and greedy and scratchy about man I got a huge library of step that's perfect for you guys and so that is a dialogue that you know that has to happen and you know that just communicate those images visually it's hard to describe that somehow that well these are some images I think are cool and kind of force him into that you know box if you will I say just use whatever words that you would use to describe your music and minus all like the sub genres in that nonsense like, I feel like my music is eating too many pastel kranz and barfing them into a sink will be like, ok, cool and then taken like there's. A reason why here. Not, like technically doing that work, they can translate that. They're only the way that you guys, both me halfway, is through just art. Sweet, well, uh, on behalf of creative live and the decibel festival, invincible conference, please join me, and you shed a tear to brendan into t j. Thanks a lot.