Lessons

Lesson Info

Getting Second Shooter Jobs

The first thing that I would recommend if you want to start getting jobs is to get known within the foot from the photographic community, but specifically the photographic community in your area. Now, if you're not out going, this is going to seem like a really daunting task. I am kind of I'm really shy, and I know that people don't believe it, but I am so, you know, to get out and he's like a big party type situations I immediately close in on myself, and I'm the girl who prefers to hang out by the fried food station in the corner, but this is gonna have to change if you want to start second shooting with other people because they believe that the personal connections you make with other for talk offers are the things that lock in those deals. Now, for starters, I want you to do a man online search for established wedding photographers in your area. Now when I say established, I don't mean the biggest, the fanciest, the most high end. I just simply mean established wedding photographe...

rs because people are going to need different things at different times. Now, once we've established a list of photographers who you think it would be awesome to work with, what I didn't want you to do is I want you, teo search and get familiar with one what they do focus on the nation of style of photography that they do and if you're a second shooter and that's what you want to pursue you want to choose a photographer who focuses heavily if not exclusively on weddings because there are photographers who do babies families, seniors, horses, cars right that photographer probably won't get you closer to what you want and what you want is experience but you wanted the ability to help another photographer right? So find out what they do secondly, I want you to follow them on all social media mechanisms facebook, twitter and instagram these things help personalize the business experience and what but what happens when you know somebody personally is that you can help them in a very different way and I'm gonna get to that in a second thirdly I want you to start thinking of ways on how or why they might need help because offering second shooting services I'm going to be honest it just isn't enough right you need to start leveraging different aspects of what you do to add value to their business so once you have a good idea of what you think about them and how you feeling it's like okay, I know this person now it's not just enough to follow them what I would love for you to do is to leave comments on their instant recount the comments on their facebook page if they're blogging weddings leave feedback because to them you're a complete stranger, but the more you start talking to them, the more you're going to personalize that relationship so that if you do send them an e mail which is I'm going to propose in a second they're like oh, I kind of remember this person from talking to me on a consistent basis so like passing that girlfriend in the height in your halls of high school he kind of so I sort of know her, you know, like oh, hey, girl, but you want to get to know her a little better okay, so then, um email them and what I want you to do is to introduce yourself and explain what it is you want you want to help them, you want to find ways to build their portfolio and at the same time if he is possible, you'd love to build your portfolio as well state your intentions don't leave it ambiguous because as a first photographer I appreciate knowing exactly what somebody wants from a relationship. Now these types of things that you doing this type of work in advance, social media blogging all this stuff finding it to get to know them it helps you find ways to help. So here's an example of how this actually played out there was a very successful photographer in chicago she had taken a maternity leave now she had all of herb weddings booked up for the fall and she had put out on social media I'm looking for a second photographer and what transpired was a lot of people sending her um request a second shoot it for her but one particular email stuck out and that email had said I really love your work I have a daughter two years ago and I know what it's like to be on maternity leave now I know this might be a little forward but when I got back into the swing of shooting I felt like it was difficult to breastfeed while I was out on the job and all of a sudden you start giving her breast feeding tips while she was out shooting a wedding day now this might be personal but she had known that she was having difficulty with this because she followed her on social media so all of a sudden out of the sea of enquiries that she got for second shooting opportunities this girl's stuck out because she knew hey, I've been there and I can help you what transpired was a really good friendship and that girl actually second shot quite a few weddings for that mean photographer now this would not have happened if she had not taken that extra time to get to know her on a personal level so small things like that and some of the guys in the audience or like maybe a guy he's like asking for car tips or something speaking to that on that level either way find what happens is like attracts like so you want to you start following photographers hyun loved to shoot with and ultimately maybe we'll find a way yes mark all these people and get to know all about their intimate with their personal lives sentiment email not come off as a stalker hey I saw that you did this last week and well I mean so when you when I met you this morning I looked you said mark right did you think that I was stalking you? I could bring up things that I had seen in your video in your video submission for this course and I think that that's the way it works of social media you put things out you know you two go up to me like, hey, I know your social security number's five five five thirty nine that's creepy you know? But people do put things out so they can connect so connecting on a peripheral level is is that and just add to that soft touches instead of coming on so strong in the beginning soft touches like maybe even liking a photo that they posted or leaving a small you know, just a comment on whatever they're doing, those air like soft touches before you get into hey once they once they see your email, they'll remember that you've been also following them on social media and doing things like that so yeah give him a little fair warning a stalker okay um what I wanted to do then craft an email that's personalized teo you know you wanting to work them but what I don't want you to do is to copy and paste the same email to ten different photographers no I'm not saying that you can't connect with ten to ten different photographers you just have to find way to personalize each of those emails now what you want to do is you want to showcase how you can use your unique skills to help that photographer and you do not want to merely ask for them to help you that's what a lot of times we see happening with second shooter's approaching first photographers is how can you help me because this is what I really want to do to be honest the response should be I want to help you so can you help you know it's just like jerry maguire help me help you right okay so here are a few examples of e mails that I have received from people who want to second she with us we're going to see if we find any sort of patterns here whatsoever okay hi jasmine my name is blank I'm not sure if you're needing a second or third shooter but please let me know if you do I would like to learn I would liketo work and learn more from you. Okay, living on this one's slightly shorter. Can you take me as your assistant with lots of respect? So it wasn't even personalized to my name. It was just can you take me as your assistant? Uh, let's see another one? Hi, jasmine. I open my own photography business and my passion is growing with every photo I take. So here is the reason of my message to you. I was wondering, how can I learn from you? Can I work? Is your second shooter for you? Can I assist you somehow so I can watch you? Here is some of the work that I've been doing, and then they provide a link to facebook again. Nothing's really wrong with it. But it sounds like there's developing a pattern. Can I shoot with you? Can you help me? Last one high just hi. Right? So I don't know if I'm bcc with like fifty other photographers. The high have heard about your photography quite a lot. I have covered few weddings all candid shoots below is my facebook page link would lug would love to work with you guys. If you ever require more photographers, this photographer and I know that it probably sounds mean, but I didn't bother responding to this photographer because this photographer didn't bother to personalize this email and I don't know if I was one of one hundred one of five so taking time to personalize each female will actually go a bit farther last one okay, I was always told the worst they can say is no, so I'm contacting you with this in mind I know j t is your second shooter, but I just wanted to ask if you ever if you ever be interested in any help I use the term help loosely because realistically I know you don't need help and that I would be the one with all the game. So two things one be sure to proof read your emails before you send them right because you want to put yourself in a professional capacity so just do that and secondly, don't don't discount what you d'oh right? You want to you want to make that first photographer excited? So if you were to say I know that you don't need help and I would be the one with all the game, it doesn't make me excited nor does it make me trustworthy to bring somebody like that along to the wedding day and just for the record I wanted because you know jasmine it can sound like she's sounds mean, but at the same you know it takes a lot of courage to send an email and so I think jasmine really appreciates getting emails, but when she did, when she gets these emails, I think she just wants to make sure that she cautions the way that you send out emails because, you know, if you're gonna take that time to actually do it, which I think is a huge step forward, you know, just make sure you're doing it with some investors. Yeah, absolutely. So I think what we've noticed in a pattern through the emails that we just read was that they're all photographers asking for an opportunity, but here's what they don't show what they don't show is what makes them unique in those five or six e mails, I didn't see one thing that made them different from the others, what also I didn't see was what makes them qualified. They all ask for it, but not one person mentioned how long they've been shooting. Not one person sent me if all of those e mails, not one person sent me a link to a professional website, they all sent me links to facebook. Um, they didn't tell me why I should invite them. I want to know why I really do and some photographers might not, but always here on the side of more information than what a person might need or want. Lastly, why is it mutually beneficial? So those four tips can make you easily stand out the minute that you're reaching out to a second to a first photographer for second shooting opportunities. Now, if you want to start a second shooting, I think that it would be best to show these things via email and help convey the value to their time as well as your time. But I want to show one email that I happened to find particularly interesting hey jasmine, my name is blank, I'm six years old and I'm a sophomore at blank high school. My passion is photography, I came across her work and was amazed by it. I also have a little photography business in my free time. I'm also based in orange county. I know this is a pretty big leap, but if you ever need one, an unpaid intern, help with stuff to film your sessions three make a promo video, I'll do it video production is also my passion, so when when I have to say that this emailer, who is sixteen years old, showed his uniqueness um, and even though he was young, I was really impressed because he provided two links one to his video portfolio and one to a professional website I would to his web site, and I was like, I didn't even have my space when I was sick sting and this kid had the full on like website like it was so impressive he explained why I should invite him he explained how it would be mutually beneficial and he asked if I was looking for a photo intern and at the time I wasn't looking for a photo intern but he wanted help with his photography and I felt like if I help him with his photography he'll help me with video, which is something that I need that he discovered that by following me on social media. So I'm happy to say that we've worked together in professional and personal capacities and in the beginning he started out as an unpaid video intern and now I'm really happy to say we're paying him because he's really good at what he does and this email instantly caught my attention so I don't want to present it like I say no to every e mail it's just like if you do it right I'm going to start paying its end I want you to find ways to add value and I want you to meet photographers in person because what happens is I should come out and admit it that I have never once especially in the first part of my career reached out to another photographer to ask for second shooting opportunities I had shot somewhere in the ballpark of thirty five to forty weddings before I shot my own wedding and I had only received the second shooting opportunities by meeting people in person or getting a personal referral from one photographer to another so if you feel kind of stuck like I don't know how to get them then you got it the rubber needs to meet the road get out and meet people now if you live in a large city this would be a slightly a little bit easier because magazines or venues have just get togethers that's where you can meet other photographers if there's especially in the early part of my career I would sign up to go to photography workshops for courses jasmine was all about them I think every weekend should be out doing something with a group of photographers or taking a workshop actually, absolutely now workshops range anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple thousand dollars. In the beginning I was doing the really inexpensive courses one hundred fifty dollars to hang out with a group of photographers I'd be like okay, but the relationships that they made in those workshops far superseded the value that I received from that singular instructor and I think that we teach workshops now and I know that the groups are actually finding more value with each other in addition to the education they become their own they shoot, you know, a lot of them if their first shooters they start shooting, you know they start tag teaming with each other so they'll be each other's, second shooters or second shooter start uniting together and going out, I'm starting their businesses together, so even had over the course of those we had two people meet and actually become a full time studio. So, you know, this is this now, this is what happens when people when you're face to face, so find a way to meet people in person and what happens, what might be easier is, uh, if you meet online first and then meet them in person because you can kind of build like a peripheral think you have to go up to somebody like, hey, how's it going? So meeting them online is always like that nice segue way now, regardless of the type of experience that you offer, somebody will need you right where you are, so don't ever hesitate or think that you aren't that person like we had mentioned earlier. Some photographers want to work with photographers who've been shooting just as much time as they have. There are photographers who wouldn't want me as their second shooter, and I understand that and that's totally fine, but knowing your range is going to be is going to be ok, what I want to show which I'm really excited is this is kristin. Kristen is in the second shooter group and she's also in the restart group a few months ago we hosted restart that we remade photographers businesses and we meet remade over three businesses but ten thousand people got onto facebook and formed a group teo actually be committed to run their business differently and kristen is one of those photographers and she posted hey jasmine last saturday a group of southern california or how we say in so kill uh less group a group of so calorie starters got together at true foods kitchen in santa monica we're so thankful for your inspiration and the new friends and connections we have made the restart let us know if you want to join us neck time and heck yes I will join them next time this is great now this is the perfect scenario so roughly ten to twelve people met for lunch now I have to say if this was happening in my area and I was just starting out I would move move heaven and high water to get to that event because I knew if I can see people face to face I can get them to trust me and I can convey to them I have your back I'm not in it for my own whatever you need is where I'll be paid or unpaid we're gonna get teo compensation in a minute we'll be very forthcoming the first seven weddings I shot did for free I did it for the hustle into this last section this is odds and ends so if you want to get jobs here a few quick things I want you to get invited to non specific photography specific related events so if you are going teo a bridal show or an expo you don't have to be a presenter you could still go and find your intersecting with photographers of different variations just mean italy by the drink station so that's a good thing that's what I did all that that I just find ways to be in people's you know hang out by the food you're going to run into people um also what you want to do is go teo a wedding industry network events so a couple months ago there was a coordinator who said can you come and shoot an event it's not paid but we have a speaker coming in it was really small event but I said of course there's the coordinator who really helped me in my career so I went and I shot the event and while I was there I met a couple of the photographers and another couple coordinators who put me in contact with photographers so going to events were just wedding industry people are is always going to be a good thing now lastly as a side note um a few tips on how to get your portfolio viewed by first shooters if you're sending to them as a second shooter, what I don't want you to do is I don't want you to send photos via email I have received emails where people attached like seventeen to twenty photos all high rez and I'm like nervous twitch in my eye because I can't read the rest of my email because these photos they're trying to load so don't do that. What not to do is if you were goingto link to your facebook portfolio that's fine, but linked to a folder on facebook just don't link to your facebook page because you go to the page you see all these random updates you see raymond photos that you want to do is put your best foot forward and you do that by curating your work in a way that you want somebody to see you um if you're going to send a slideshow, assume that you have thirty seconds of that first shooters um undivided attention so if you're going to send a slideshow, put your best work in the beginning put your best foot forward don't try to intermix them you know I want to end it strong no, they might not get to the end. So for the best stuff in the beginning and last week, if you are not stoked with your website, you can't expect a first photographer to get stoked about your website so before you start reaching out do what you need to do to get really amped and excited about the portfolio that you are presenting if you are stuck on that that's not what this course is about what we went through it and restart. We spent three months on howto build websites and actual make it something you're proud of. So I heavily encourage you to get involved. The restart group asked questions and check things out. But where that leads us now is a q and a section our favorite section. Okay, all right, let's, start with the studio audience. Does anyone have a question? You guys think about your questions. We have plenty online. All right, let's, start. You know, I know there are so many questions that are going to be answered, but I just want a couple people would ask confucius jones, who is from istanbul, as well as heather price, talking about how much should the limitations of their current gear affect their ability to second shoot? Um, someone said I currently own a t three I with minimal lens, but I am highly motivated to shoot. Do first photographers ever provide gear to the second? I know we've covered that a little bit, but question seems to be coming up a lot. Yes, uh, first first shooters sometimes do allow that do provide year um and the thing is if you only have one lens doesn't mean you can't second shoot you khun second shoot an entire wedding with one lands as long as the first shooter knows you're just working with one lens this is where okay, this is the second shooter's response let me chime in as a first shooter I thinkit's a great response it isthe, but as long as that first in your nose but I would say that a first shooter probably wouldn't invite a second shooter with one lens if you are a second shooter and you don't have more than one lens heavily encourage you to rent what you need, jd is going to show you his set up and it's very straight forward we could probably estimate the rental value on the lenses that he's brings to a wedding and it would roughly cost less than one hundred dollars. So if you happen to get paid for that wedding, just understand that you're paying and covering your rental fees either way find a way to make it work we rented all is not most of our gear for those first few weddings that that we worked so I'm I'm a huge proponent of it and I wanted to give confuses a little bit of motivation there because jasmine's right um definitely rent gear if if you can but at the same time there's I know some first shooters who will actually hire more than just a second, like jasmine was they'll bring in a second, third and maybe even a fourth and, you know the fourth shooter, if they know, uh, they only have one lens, that first shooter will probably say you're gonna be the fourth shooter today, which is fine because you're still getting that experience that you want, which leads me while this is the world's longest answer that wedding, that wedding, that a fourth shot. I actually had two lenses. I had the twenty four to seventy and I the seventy two, two hundred. So I conveyed to that first shooter that my vocal range was from twenty four, which is pretty wide tio two hundred, which is pretty tight. So it was a great range you could shoot, you could theoretically issue, and it was like the seventy, two hundred with macro ability, I was like, I got macro too. I mean, looking back, I was like, but I was the fourth shooter, so it was all good. So know what? You know, work with what you have and forthcoming with it. Yes. All right. I think that the topic about how to get second shooter jobs is definitely a big one and so following up on that from priscilla christine, how do you handle the primary shooters who will never respond back after you have put in to second she with them or you have contacted them several times to second chute but they have never given you a chance so maybe how how much is too much right? Um if you really really, really want to shoot with that second with that first photographer you make that initial contact and then maybe wait a week or two, which should be plenty of time and do a follow up just to ensure that they received it but if they don't respond after that second follow up I would highly encourage them to move in a different direction because it's kind of like dating, you know, if the guy doesn't call you back, she doesn't want a second date so you know it's fine, you know it's hard because I know that a lot of times you want to take those things personally, but it has nothing to do with that second shooter attempting they could just be really busy or they just really liked the second shooter that they currently have so making sure move on like jasmine said, oh my gosh, how mean I'm like move on girl and he's like, well, you understand what I was saying earlier where uh, don't uh just use email as the only source of internet introducing yourself so that's great okay, we did have questions coming in about why can't I use facebook and we did talk about that but people are asking uh bear lin fifty four asking as a type two so you know the differentiating themselves between the different types of second shooter's what's the best way to share my portfolio with photographers since I don't have a professional website and then leelee also said if I'm wanting to second shoot and not run a business myself um do I really need a professional website and why isn't facebook good enough? Well, I mean as a point of clarification I think that we had initially set out that facebook was a difficult thing it's a difficult mechanism to navigate to highlight your straight so what you want to do as a professional second shooter if you're a type two or even if you are a type three is you want to put your bust foot forward and sometimes just simply sending them a facebook link isn't enough right? So if these people are asking these questions and they're booked for the year don't listen to me if you're asking me these questions and you ain't got no jobs I might have a thing waiting to help you get there you can use facebook but put your best foot forward, create a separate folder specifically for one either each event or to a conglomerate of those events and then give that first shooter and option so if I was in the situation, I didn't have a blogger I didn't have a slideshow mechanism, but between both of those options, you could probably get a block and a slight a mechanism for less than a hundred dollars. Okay, so I'm not one for excuses. My dad was a marine, so you know, excuses are like rear ends. Everybody has one, so facebook here is one where I would say this is my most recent favorite wedding. Here is a recent collection of all of my work here is a collection of low light settings because I know that this kid caused a lot of photographers to worry. You want to make it easy? Like if I got a like a detailed list of this, this this and this out, like I want to click on the low light, I want to see what they do you there if you can handle low light, you could probably handle everything in between I'm gonna add it I'm always timing in out, uh, type two second shooters, I consider professionals uh, you know, type two second shooter's theywant to khun actively keep on shooting so as professionals, I think it's a great idea to get a website, especially even if you never want to become a for a shooter I just have uh having that website where you can have your portfolio and showcase who you are even if you're a bio of what you do is always a good leg up so if you don't have that yet make sure that you I had encouraged you try to start working on getting a website now what we need to understand we need to put out from the get go second shooting is competitive oh yeah there are you know I would venture to say that the ratio between first and second shooter's there's like for everyone for a shooter there's probably eight to ten second shooters so for people who are saying well why can't I do this well you can but your mutt you may or may not be as competitive as other people who have the ability to organize it an effective manner no questions in the studio yeah regression so we're talking about here you guys should cannon I shoot an icon is there gonna be is that gonna be a factor for a primary shooter or first shooter same like hey, I shoot nikon but I know you can because I know there's a difference in post in everything too so good question um I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't think so like if there was a second but it was a second shooter who I felt like loved his portfolio and you happen to shoot nikon you know it's fine I mean your glasses and he's got his mind all the internet's like no yeah not enough um yeah, it wouldn't be an issue at least for me okay, yes um I want to really put you back on what you guys were saying earlier about like reaching out to other people because when we moved here last year we did the same thing we reached out to a couple who we felt like we could connect with just on a personal level teo and we just got together for drinks and like met it was nothing for trying to second shoot with them or anything on the get go it was just like, hey, we're new here your photographers we're married you're married like we have so much in common let's like see if we can be friends and so I definitely recommend that has been super successful works what was fired from that like so we could talk and we'll get together and they've helped us a lot with getting our business up and running shut out juliana nathan but yeah, it was it's been awesome, I don't have to hear that. So yeah, this is proof that I'm not talking about let's get marc did you have a question? I was just wondering uh kind of cart before the horse if you don't have the experience of shooting a wedding, how do you then kind of put together a portfolio that you might send you a first shooter. Maybe if you don't have the bride in all of that can use other pictures. What would be your guys recognition on that? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, on a wedding day, we're gonna get to this in a second. But I asked jd as my second shooter to shoot what we call environmental photos. So this is very similar to what you might shoot for a landscape, because we want to set the scene of the wedding. If you happen to shoot landscapes and you send a couple landscapes, if you happen to shoot your cousin, your sister, whoever you're around like, a portrait of a girl is a fortunate girl. If you know if I could see her body lines, I could see the movement. I could see laughter a girl in a white dress. A girl in black dress is still gonna be the same for me. I'm looking for basic principles. If you have that, I think your portfolio is gonna be strong. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, I sent an email to a local photographer friend known she was looking for a second shooter. Um, and I also didn't have the portfolio, but I really wanted to get into it, um and I e mailed her and um, she was like, wow, she's, like, I'm looking for somebody with a little bit more experience than what you have right now, but I have all my equipment. I sent her a list, awesome pictures and she was like, well, she's like, how about you interns assist with me for a while? So that's actually how I got into it to build my portfolio to the same thing I emailed her that I met with her, uh absolutely love her she's great going to the same thing. Hi, janey. Um but it is it's such a such a nice feeling that there are people that will help you build your portfolio and teach you but it's the same thing I was helping her, I was assisting with her uh, that's great that's a great point and what I want to point out is yes, it it said a lot for her name is janey. Yes, it said a lot for danny to take on somebody but janie watched her back. She didn't say yes. Come on, she said, come intern and there was a lot of photographer out there who'd be like, I can't enter and either I don't have time for it or I'm above it or I have too much syrians and that's not, you know, sheet I didn't say yes but she didn't say no and you know there are gonna be photographers and you have to understand that a photographer will watch his or her and protect his or her business like it is there baby so don't be offended if they if they say you have to work for free or you have to come in and assist you have to schlep my bags you have to hold the reflector if you really want about and if you're gonna do what it takes to make it work very good advice actually like that jasmine and jd we have such an engaged audience out there there are so many amazing questions coming in so we're just going to take a somewhere because we still have five minutes so uh question is I'm solo shot for thirteen years and with a second shooter maybe ten times can you talk a little bit about the value of having a second shooter and in what scenario you need them but again again the value that's huge I would encourage this person to put this exact question on the facebook second shooter group so that other people can speak directly into this I've had photographers coming to do my work shop and say I prefer to work alone, I like autonomy I don't want to worry about anybody else and I just want to shake them and I'm like if for nothing else at eight to ten hour day by yourself can feel very isolating because five days week you're probably by yourself either in a cubicle or at your office at home and so you go to a wedding and again you're by yourself having somebody there for backup for support for that simple conversation because you know there's always that one crazy person on a wedding reception who's out in the middle, the dance or that drunk girl who just drink sure her cut off with, like, three drinks ago it's sometimes nice and look up at your second shooter and just had a communication like, oh my god, this is the one so it's like that alone is worth its weight in gold outside of things that happened to there have been times where I'm in a position before the first kiss and random uncle bob gets in the middle of the aisle right in front of my lens and I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, is this real life? Is this happening right now on I look over and he's like thank you sweet baby jesus. So yeah, like those moments really really happened, so it's scary it's absolutely scary and having a second shooter to protect your business for personal and professional capacities and also just to have a friend is always is always a great thing you know he's been doing it for a while I think you said fifteen years he's been doing doing it solo but it only takes that one time where you just start like you know that one wedding you just never want to leave that bad taste that you didn't get a certain shot that the bride really really wanted in their mouths so you know that's just being being prepared I heard him teo try three weddings you know one wedding probably you're not going to find its implicit value after one experience but after three it'll give him a good idea and if he still feels like oh well I do this better on my own that's fine to each his own but to give it three honest good chances I think he'll find value in very different capacities and free him up to get the type of photos that he wants now this is a creative aspect now for him some of us can get those solid shapes shot you know yeah you can start er distributing some more responsibility that second shooter and it's gonna free them up to do to be more creative too awesome what we are getting questions from first shooters two way wanted for shooters and they are they are watching so sonny says a lot of young people starting photography are inexperienced shooters and they think they're a lot better than they are like we all have right what do you guys recommend for potential second shooters to do to get an objective assessment of their skills? Were actually going to get into that because way know that one of the number one complaints from first shooters is the fact that the second shooter isn't capable of their their portfolio just it looked great, but they didn't have the technicality throughout the entire wedding day, and we get that so jazz was actually going toe photography overview on the things at a second you ways to improve our exposure as a second shooter that we know that we're getting the types of photos that the first shooter really wants and can actually use as opposed to just yeah alone out photos to speak to that question directly, though, where people can go to get, like an honest assessment, I think it's a to it's a two part answer if you see potential in the second shooter and that second shooter wants to work with you and you think that this could potentially be a good relationship, see how much you want to invest in that person? We're going to get into how to critique a second shooter if I mean janey saw something in you. Right and she says there's something here and I'm going to see if I could work with african massage what's going on here now there's other photographers who would look at me like that's not for me and that's fine but what second cheaters second shooter's need to do is to get honest opinions from their peers now you can go on to the restart group or you can go into the second shooter group know what I would encourage people is to keep the second shooter group for second shooting enquiries questions things of that nature so let's just say hypothetically terra puts together a portfolio right and you want to put a wide range you don't want to put like these are my six killer shots so everyone's like these are amazing and you feel so great about yourself but you really aren't getting a true feeling put up an online gallery of a couple hundred images maybe one person maybe two people find a group of peers that kid all come in together and say ok guys we're all second shooters you could meet them on the facebook second shooter group and say online I'm gonna show you your gallery and you shall be mine and I'm gonna show you yours and the three of y'all are gonna keep it real k I r and be like your low light there's a bunch of grain in that like you need to fix that stat right the only way that you can get an honest opinion is if the other person is, is equally invested. So fine. People who. Either one want to help you in a higher position or two, or at the same level you are. But all everybody's going to be mutually getting something beneficial from that relationship.